Meeting with Robert Lardiner

This past week was travelling Wednesday through today for NBA Predraft and Art Horne’s BSMPG seminar. Some time ago, the first time I met Ben Shear, my interest in the Prague School and Pavel Kolar came up. Through his network, he mentioned a physical therapist from Chicago, Robert Lardiner, that was one of Janda’s premiere students. I remember Ben saying that Robert rocked some people several years ago in asserting that the rounded fat belly filled with IAP is the objective standard for a strong core. As a powerlifter, that is hardly a far reach for me, but certainly having been formally exposed to DNS and segmental stabilization, this suggestion is best practice at this time.
Anyway, Ben set me up with Robert, and he and I had dinner one evening. I suppose it went well as Robert came over to the Predraft hotel the next day to continue our dialogue.

I certainly didn’t expect it to be the first topic, we talked about WBV first. Robert knew through Ben of my background, so he brought it up. Robert is well travelled and trained with European methods, so he knew of Galileo/Vibraflex and the major differences. Like most smart people, his view of Powerplate was jaded and skeptical. He regulalrly works with DePaul basketball, and their Powerplate collect dust because they don’t know how to use it. My suggestion that they probably got it for free made sense as to why they didn’t much care about it.
My connection of WBV to a movement-based approach was that if you have the requisite mobility or passive centration in a static pattern, I believe you can begin to chip away at an aberrant active motor program through spinally-mediated contractions. Bad movement exists in the brain. If we can establish sections of a quality patterns and bombard it with mechanorecption independent of the current brain motor program, I think we have reason to believe we can improve the pattern. I think this just PNF when it comes down to it. I do not always see respiration normalize immediately on the Vibraflex, and I am certainly using RS and cortical techniques as well, but like most WBV indications, I think there are trends to believe there is a comparable sign and training effect.
Certainly it was flattering that Robert came over to the Sheraton the next day to the NBASCA trade show to play around on the Vibraflex, particularly when I had no intentions of talking about vibration.

My selfish end of trying to meet colleagues in this case was to get more DNS questions answered. My biggest issue as a novice practitioner of Reflex Stimulation is to truly know if I am doing the technique correctly when you do not get an anticipatory pattern and/or there is no magic fix post-treatment.
His suggestions were……..
1. Reinforcing the notion that the anticipatory pattern is not required for success
2. Sometimes the treatment time required is tedious and long; Kolar has this luxury
3. You may need to change the position; I only know 2 positions
4. You may need multiple treating clinicians; 3 people = 6 zones for a summated response
5. The input may not be right for that person, aka the magic isn’t magic for everybody

Stuff we discussed……………….
–The body is a series of fixed points. Just another way of saying joint by joint, I believe.
–It is very okay to squat with a posterior pelvic tilt during an unloaded demonstration, NOT as an exercise with load or repetition.
–The brace is not as objective as a core indicator appraisal as there is no assertion from anyone what a good brace is or isn’t. The breath for ISSS tests has criterion of direction, sequence, navel migration, upper and lower landmarks. I do not disagree, but rather suggest the quality of the brace is not measured in the abdomen like the breath, but rather in the expression of force production @ hand. My suggestion continues with the thought that people brace when they don’t need to in lesser tasks, which to me is a screen for inner core limitations.
–Robert was vehemently against my suggestions regarding the vertical tibia. I agree that it is not an accurate portrayal of squat the movement, but that is not my suggestion. You have all heard me say if you go out wide to a box, you better earn the right to be out there with narrow, feet straight, ass to grass. As we got deeper, Robert explained that when he has been brought to DePaul basketball, he sees big squats sitting way back, chest down, toes curled upwards. That was his perception of what I was proposing when in fact, whoever the jackass at Depaul is simply allowing his athletes an excuse to do what they call a squat. It is unecessary and/or a technique these young men are not prepared for in terms of mobility and stability. Putting that bar low on your back is a free pass to put more weight on the bar, but if you do not take that advantage of a shorter lever to L5-S1 by buttressing the shear with T-spine extension and minimizing anterior tilt, you have done nothing but fooled and damaged yourself. The vertical tibia box squat is about sparing the knee and properly loading the spine. You must arrive with strong shearing restraint. I believe this comes with progressive load and a great program. That is not what Robert was seeing @ Depaul.
–Gua Sha has both of myofascial effect and a neural modulation. I forgot to mention FAKTR to him, which I’m told is a combination of IASTM and Mulligan. Who know where I’ll be by that time, but I am looking to take FAKTR in September.

Robert is one of the 3 authors of what I commonly call Clare’s book, The Janda Approach. I would be remiss to continue to not acknowledge him and Phil Page as well.
It is quite gratifying to get closer to the Janda clique, and if I play my cards right, I will be in Prague in 2011.

  • May 23, 2010

Leave a Reply 9 comments

Mike T Nelson Reply

Thanks for the sharing of what you learned Charlie! Much appreciated!

Have you had much success with DNS on more “average to good” athletes–meaning those without many glaring movement issues?

My thoughts are, the more “messed” a particular athlete is (moves poorly), the more useful DNS may be with them. I have not done any DNS work, so this is purely a guess on my part.

What was the one big take away that people could start to use on Monday AM in the gym/on the field?

Thanks again
rock on
Mike T Nelson PhD(c)

Dan Lentz Reply

Charlie,

I had intended to ask this on your basketball post the other day, but since you mentioned vertical tibia today, I will ask here………….while some situations may require use of a box squat variant to spare the knees undue stress, would most of those same cases still have you using unloaded/bodyweight squatting frequently as, say, part of a warm-up?

I am coming from a general training background and am not involved in therapy or working with special populations, so hopefully I don’t come across as too much of a dunce.

These days a lot of people seem to use box squatting without even being able to perform a solid-looking deep squat with bodyweight, and then the movement just seemed to catch on in a number of circles and spread in popularity.

Charlie Reply

Mike – I’ve only used DNS on painful individuals. I don’t work with anyone on a performance level with those techniques at this time.
I have no empirical results that DNS works better with someone with stronger dysfunction. I have seen magic with varying levels of pain and/or dysfunction.

The most important thing from Robert was that indeed the body is governed by fixed point of mobility and stability and to train outside of those points of centration is a foolish mistake.

Charlie Reply

Dan – I still strongly advocate for owning the Deep Squat pattern, which must be performed with a vertical tibia. This can happen in warm-up, corrective training, or even loaded patterns.
It must happen for sprint and vertical power training.
The vertical tibia principles apply strongest to those with or history of knee pain, jumping athletes, and limit strength training.

I don’t mind the box squat if you still can’t squat as long as you are actively progressing towards a 2 in the FMS Deep Squat. It can be in parallel. Ignoring the dysfunction and using the box squat as an excuse to “exercise” in spite of it is poor form.

Mike T Nelson Reply

“…… indeed the body is governed by fixed point of mobility and stability and to train outside of those points of centration is a foolish mistake.”

Perhaps I am just being dense and have taken too many falls off my mountain bike, but by this statement are you taking about the joints or other points in the body?

thanks
Mike T Nelson PhD(c)

Charlie Reply

Mike – Talking about the joints and organs as well. Joints make the most sense; fixed points is just another way of saying Joint by Joint Theory or PICR.
But certainly visceral integrity or lack there of can change optimal organ allignment, which has a neural contribution to movement and wellness.

craigliebensondc@gmail.com Reply

Charlie,
Robert Lardner is a special cat. Extremely intuitive & one of the finest teachers. I think it would be rare for him not get a reaction performing DNS. But, I believe it is a mistake to make DNS complicated. The reason is simple. The developer of this was Pr Vojta and he taught parents how to train their kids w/ Cerebral Palsy. That being the case it MUST be simple.
A different perspective from what you mentioned is in CAPS below:
His suggestions were……..
1. Reinforcing the notion that the anticipatory pattern is not required for success
AGREED, BUT A DIAPHGRAGMATIC REACTION IS REQUIRED FOR SUCCESS
2. Sometimes the treatment time required is tedious and long; Kolar has this luxury
CAN OCCUR IN JUST 10S. I RARELY SPEND MORE THAN A FEW MINUTES.
3. You may need to change the position; I only know 2 positions
THIS IS TRUE, BUT SINCE A REACTION IS SO EASY TO ACHIEVE A FEW POSITIONS ARE GOOD, MORE BETTER.
4. You may need multiple treating clinicians; 3 people = 6 zones for a summated response
IF YOUR GOAL IS INVOLUNTARY MOVEMENT I AGREE. BUT A BREATHING REACTION CAN BE A 1 MAN SHOW.
5. The input may not be right for that person, aka the magic isn’t magic for everybody
I BELIEVE EVERYONE CAN BENEFIT FROM A RESPIRATORY RE-BOOT. IT IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT & COMMON FAULTY MOVEMENT PATTERN. MYELINATE THOSE PATHWAYS!

Craig

Charlie Reply

Dr. Liebenson, my struggles thus far as a novice practitioner of DNS is when we do get a respiratory response without a favorable comparable sign.
I am just not clear on my technique without a regular mentor to work with on a regular basis.
That being said, there is no doubt that I have succeeded often at eliciting the anticipatory pattern and silly results.

drperry@optonline.net Reply

I guess you played your cards right! Lol

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